有担当的村上长访谈——《猫头鹰在黄昏起飞》

果然，在《刺杀骑士团长》热卖后，村上再次推出长访谈。村上君自嘲的“村上产业链”确实不得了。个人感觉本次访谈比《IQ84》后推出的访谈“干货”要多些。这次采访者本身是位少年时期就喜欢村上小说的女性作家，川上未映子的提问相当扎实，一出手就是资深村上迷，同时又有同道中人的敏锐和深度。村上君呢？也非常坦率地谈了自己对60年代学运的态度、对小说的看法、对善恶的看法、对当今政治的看法、小说家的责任，当然还有对自己作品《刺杀骑士团长》的创作心得和解读线索。本次访谈，正如村上所说，他本人相当中意这种访谈过程中双方的“担当”。

先说下翻译和版本。我是看林少华老师的翻译版长大的，但由于众所周知的原因，我从《1Q84》开始就看村上的台版了。《刺杀骑士团长》又因为台湾出版早，还是读的赖明珠女士翻译的。虽然也买了林老师版，但至今未读。或许由于长期未读林老师的翻译，所以再次读这本访谈，觉得这种文风有点陌生，甚至刚开始读，语言风格有点不自然。豆瓣上有评论说林老师的翻译有大幅删减，我不放心，又买了一本台版的。两个版本对照看了两遍，林老师的翻译并没有什么删减。至于语言风格，读了两遍后，似乎也适应了。总体来说，林老师的翻译是负责任的；语言优美程度方面，双方在不同地方的翻译各有千秋；从语言表达晓畅方面看，台版更为通畅明朗。举几个例子：

从语言的艺术性方面看，书的标题，个人口味更喜欢林老师的翻译《猫头鹰在黄昏起飞》；台版翻译的《猫头鹰在黄昏飞翔》缺乏动态。从上海译文版注释得知，这个典故出自古罗马神话，Minerva是“思想和理性的象征……黑格尔曾经用过这个比喻，意在说明哲学是一种反思、沉思的理性”。那么用起飞这个动作，更能表现出猫头鹰的警觉、机敏。同理，林老师“优秀的鼓手不击打最关键的音”比台版“优秀的打击乐手，不会敲出最重要的乐音”语感更加有力、干脆。

语言晓畅方面，台版通篇不会影响阅读理解，但林老师的个别翻译就令人摸不着头脑啦。比如“引水员三十五六岁正好”这一节开头，那句理解《刺杀骑士团长》非常关键的话，林老师的翻译比较费解：“那个场景出现的东西，反正全都是隐喻，洞本身就是隐喻，‘长面人’本人也说自己是隐喻。‘那好，说个隐喻试试！’不过很难说是乖巧的隐喻啊！”；读台版这句话就明白了“那一幕出现的东西，充满隐喻。洞穴本身是隐喻，‘长脸的’自己也说自己是隐喻。可是当他被呛‘那你说个隐喻来听听’,他却说不出机智的隐喻”。

访谈内容充实与否，相当大程度上取决于访谈人吧。川上未映子为村上安排了四次访谈，第一次为《作为职业的小说家》做的访谈，深得村上心意，由是《刺杀骑士团长》后的访谈，村上点明交给了川上未映子。那么，村上君在本次访谈中给出了哪些干货呢？

语言、理念、隐喻

访谈一开始，村上就谈了对60年代学运的看法：看到语言被政治口号所消耗、污染，感到心痛。语言是人思维的外壳，人们诉诸语言表达情感、表达需求，还有人利用语言进行操纵。小说家、政治、宗教都是深谙语言之道的人。村上君指出，这之间的区别在于小说家明白并且敬畏语言的力量，小说家提供的故事，解读是开放性的；而政客言之凿凿，邪教的故事言说则是一个闭环，把人的心智圈在里面。

村上在访谈中，非常坚决地否认了理念、隐喻与哲学、柏拉图之间的关系，并且强调《刺杀骑士团长》中的理念和隐喻仅仅只是一个词语，至于词语的内涵，需要读者去赋予。村上提供的解读线索之一是，无论“理念”还是“隐喻”都是自称如此，至于是不是真的理念和隐喻，由读者判断。

村上再三强调，不要机械、确定地去解读故事。提醒人们重视故事的力量：不仅仅是小说，从某种意义上说，人类文化本身是一种主观叙述。警惕故事中蕴藏的黑暗力量。从这个意义上讲，善恶的界限相当微妙，一不小心，会跨入另一领域。为什么故事和言辞具有如此强大的威力呢?

意识、集体无意识、故事

人类历史上，大部分时间，个人处于集体中，人不是作为个人来生存、思考的，大部分时期人是作为整体来行动的。所谓文化，大部分时期反映的是集体的意识。后来即使有了语言，也是最高统治层、巫师或者宗教领袖充当人与神灵的沟通媒介。只有到了近代，个人才从集体中逐渐分离出来，个人成为思考的主体。从这个意义上看，无意识、集体无意识比意识的出现历史更为久远，在进化树上，无意识应该是更为底层的东西。故事的魅力正是诉诸于无意识，巧妙的故事可以勾起人的集体无意识。那种集体无意识，人在日常生活中无法触碰，更黑暗、原始、混乱、非理性，以故事的形式，让其显形。好的故事，让这种“地下二层”的潜意识力量显形后，人能够对其反思、转换形式加以释放，或者按照日本传统的说法，对于不好的东西加以“镇魂”。

个人感觉，村上一向对这类集体无意识的主体成分持负面态度：偏向邪恶、残酷。比如村上在访谈中非常明确指出，“纳粹德国的所作所为，乃是把那种集体生成的影子转嫁给外部的结果”，“日本人心里，自己也是战争受害者这种意识很强，一致自己是施害者这一认识无论如何都要滞后。而且，细部事实总是逃进众说纷纭那个地带。我认为这也是‘恶的故事’，说来说去，最后在自己也受骗上当了那个地方不了了之——天皇不坏，国民也不坏，坏的是军部，就像这个样子。这正是集体无意识的可怕之处”。村上通过故事，提醒人们关注这种集体无意识的危险，并坦率指出，最大的“恶”是体制system。它潜伏于教育体系、隐藏在宗教中，吸食人的欲望和善良，开动官僚机器，吐出整齐划一的驯化之徒。因此村上自称“铁杆个人主义”，对于体制的恶强烈怀有敏感的戒心。

村上认为作家的责任在于唤起每个人内心潜藏的善，故事的“善性”根据是历史的重量。尊重历史，从人几万年以来流传下来的神话、故事、历史中挖掘出“善”的种子。数万年进化沉淀下来的东西值得人继续讲述下去。村上以日本官方对南京大屠杀的历史态度为例，如果以理性去反驳官方的暧昧，那么势必陷入官方准备的一整套对策里。但如果将这一历史事件以故事的形式加以转化，由于故事属于理念和隐喻范畴，超出了官方的对策范围，对方还不知道如何反击，只能远远围住嚎叫。因此，善的故事在近现代拥有百折不挠的力量，可以突破封锁流传下去！

自我、技法、时机

村上的访谈必然谈到写作。可以说村上君总是把写作的技法贯穿在整个访谈中。村上把小说写作作为磨炼自己人生的平台，语言、文体、写作时机、人称、比喻这些外行人看似玄妙的东西，村上总是以非常务实的技术性态度谈论（炸牡蛎的技术），往往让你觉得，小说写作原来是这么回事啊，不如我也试试看吧。

虽然村上的小说非常现代性，甚至被批评小说中时尚品牌太多。但个人感觉，村上对于现代那种“自我”概念相当反感。不仅在这次访谈，我好像在其他村上访谈中，也看到过村上这种对现代人“自我”追求的一种厌恶。一方面，或许如村上所说，自夏目漱石以来，反映个人内心世界的私小说被日本现代作家写“尽”了；另一方，村上可能对于这种耽溺于个人内心世界的价值观不甚认同吧。村上一再表示，并不是为了追求自我而去写小说，而是在小说写作过程中偶尔瞥见自我，在小说技艺的打磨过程中构建出了自我——似乎是一种相当科学化的“自我”概念。

所以川上未映子的总结非常精到：“一是关键事项要充分投入时间；二是要逼视‘此其时也’”。不仅对于小说写作，对于任何自己关注的对象都适用吧。持续投入时间、身心专注、深度介入，与选定的对象全面关联，主动等待，时机来了，就像密涅瓦的猫头鹰一般机敏地振翅起飞。

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