有担当的村上长访谈——《猫头鹰在黄昏起飞》

果然,在《刺杀骑士团长》热卖后,村上再次推出长访谈。村上君自嘲的“村上产业链”确实不得了。个人感觉本次访谈比《IQ84》后推出的访谈“干货”要多些。这次采访者本身是位少年时期就喜欢村上小说的女性作家,川上未映子的提问相当扎实,一出手就是资深村上迷,同时又有同道中人的敏锐和深度。村上君呢?也非常坦率地谈了自己对60年代学运的态度、对小说的看法、对善恶的看法、对当今政治的看法、小说家的责任,当然还有对自己作品《刺杀骑士团长》的创作心得和解读线索。本次访谈,正如村上所说,他本人相当中意这种访谈过程中双方的“担当”。

先说下翻译和版本。我是看林少华老师的翻译版长大的,但由于众所周知的原因,我从《1Q84》开始就看村上的台版了。《刺杀骑士团长》又因为台湾出版早,还是读的赖明珠女士翻译的。虽然也买了林老师版,但至今未读。或许由于长期未读林老师的翻译,所以再次读这本访谈,觉得这种文风有点陌生,甚至刚开始读,语言风格有点不自然。豆瓣上有评论说林老师的翻译有大幅删减,我不放心,又买了一本台版的。两个版本对照看了两遍,林老师的翻译并没有什么删减。至于语言风格,读了两遍后,似乎也适应了。总体来说,林老师的翻译是负责任的;语言优美程度方面,双方在不同地方的翻译各有千秋;从语言表达晓畅方面看,台版更为通畅明朗。举几个例子:

从语言的艺术性方面看,书的标题,个人口味更喜欢林老师的翻译《猫头鹰在黄昏起飞》;台版翻译的《猫头鹰在黄昏飞翔》缺乏动态。从上海译文版注释得知,这个典故出自古罗马神话,Minerva是“思想和理性的象征……黑格尔曾经用过这个比喻,意在说明哲学是一种反思、沉思的理性”。那么用起飞这个动作,更能表现出猫头鹰的警觉、机敏。同理,林老师“优秀的鼓手不击打最关键的音”比台版“优秀的打击乐手,不会敲出最重要的乐音”语感更加有力、干脆。

语言晓畅方面,台版通篇不会影响阅读理解,但林老师的个别翻译就令人摸不着头脑啦。比如“引水员三十五六岁正好”这一节开头,那句理解《刺杀骑士团长》非常关键的话,林老师的翻译比较费解:“那个场景出现的东西,反正全都是隐喻,洞本身就是隐喻,‘长面人’本人也说自己是隐喻。‘那好,说个隐喻试试!’不过很难说是乖巧的隐喻啊!”;读台版这句话就明白了“那一幕出现的东西,充满隐喻。洞穴本身是隐喻,‘长脸的’自己也说自己是隐喻。可是当他被呛‘那你说个隐喻来听听’,他却说不出机智的隐喻”。

访谈内容充实与否,相当大程度上取决于访谈人吧。川上未映子为村上安排了四次访谈,第一次为《作为职业的小说家》做的访谈,深得村上心意,由是《刺杀骑士团长》后的访谈,村上点明交给了川上未映子。那么,村上君在本次访谈中给出了哪些干货呢?

语言、理念、隐喻

访谈一开始,村上就谈了对60年代学运的看法:看到语言被政治口号所消耗、污染,感到心痛。语言是人思维的外壳,人们诉诸语言表达情感、表达需求,还有人利用语言进行操纵。小说家、政治、宗教都是深谙语言之道的人。村上君指出,这之间的区别在于小说家明白并且敬畏语言的力量,小说家提供的故事,解读是开放性的;而政客言之凿凿,邪教的故事言说则是一个闭环,把人的心智圈在里面。

村上在访谈中,非常坚决地否认了理念、隐喻与哲学、柏拉图之间的关系,并且强调《刺杀骑士团长》中的理念和隐喻仅仅只是一个词语,至于词语的内涵,需要读者去赋予。村上提供的解读线索之一是,无论“理念”还是“隐喻”都是自称如此,至于是不是真的理念和隐喻,由读者判断。

村上再三强调,不要机械、确定地去解读故事。提醒人们重视故事的力量:不仅仅是小说,从某种意义上说,人类文化本身是一种主观叙述。警惕故事中蕴藏的黑暗力量。从这个意义上讲,善恶的界限相当微妙,一不小心,会跨入另一领域。为什么故事和言辞具有如此强大的威力呢?

意识、集体无意识、故事

人类历史上,大部分时间,个人处于集体中,人不是作为个人来生存、思考的,大部分时期人是作为整体来行动的。所谓文化,大部分时期反映的是集体的意识。后来即使有了语言,也是最高统治层、巫师或者宗教领袖充当人与神灵的沟通媒介。只有到了近代,个人才从集体中逐渐分离出来,个人成为思考的主体。从这个意义上看,无意识、集体无意识比意识的出现历史更为久远,在进化树上,无意识应该是更为底层的东西。故事的魅力正是诉诸于无意识,巧妙的故事可以勾起人的集体无意识。那种集体无意识,人在日常生活中无法触碰,更黑暗、原始、混乱、非理性,以故事的形式,让其显形。好的故事,让这种“地下二层”的潜意识力量显形后,人能够对其反思、转换形式加以释放,或者按照日本传统的说法,对于不好的东西加以“镇魂”。

个人感觉,村上一向对这类集体无意识的主体成分持负面态度:偏向邪恶、残酷。比如村上在访谈中非常明确指出,“纳粹德国的所作所为,乃是把那种集体生成的影子转嫁给外部的结果”,“日本人心里,自己也是战争受害者这种意识很强,一致自己是施害者这一认识无论如何都要滞后。而且,细部事实总是逃进众说纷纭那个地带。我认为这也是‘恶的故事’,说来说去,最后在自己也受骗上当了那个地方不了了之——天皇不坏,国民也不坏,坏的是军部,就像这个样子。这正是集体无意识的可怕之处”。村上通过故事,提醒人们关注这种集体无意识的危险,并坦率指出,最大的“恶”是体制system。它潜伏于教育体系、隐藏在宗教中,吸食人的欲望和善良,开动官僚机器,吐出整齐划一的驯化之徒。因此村上自称“铁杆个人主义”,对于体制的恶强烈怀有敏感的戒心。

村上认为作家的责任在于唤起每个人内心潜藏的善,故事的“善性”根据是历史的重量。尊重历史,从人几万年以来流传下来的神话、故事、历史中挖掘出“善”的种子。数万年进化沉淀下来的东西值得人继续讲述下去。村上以日本官方对南京大屠杀的历史态度为例,如果以理性去反驳官方的暧昧,那么势必陷入官方准备的一整套对策里。但如果将这一历史事件以故事的形式加以转化,由于故事属于理念和隐喻范畴,超出了官方的对策范围,对方还不知道如何反击,只能远远围住嚎叫。因此,善的故事在近现代拥有百折不挠的力量,可以突破封锁流传下去!

自我、技法、时机

村上的访谈必然谈到写作。可以说村上君总是把写作的技法贯穿在整个访谈中。村上把小说写作作为磨炼自己人生的平台,语言、文体、写作时机、人称、比喻这些外行人看似玄妙的东西,村上总是以非常务实的技术性态度谈论(炸牡蛎的技术),往往让你觉得,小说写作原来是这么回事啊,不如我也试试看吧。

虽然村上的小说非常现代性,甚至被批评小说中时尚品牌太多。但个人感觉,村上对于现代那种“自我”概念相当反感。不仅在这次访谈,我好像在其他村上访谈中,也看到过村上这种对现代人“自我”追求的一种厌恶。一方面,或许如村上所说,自夏目漱石以来,反映个人内心世界的私小说被日本现代作家写“尽”了;另一方,村上可能对于这种耽溺于个人内心世界的价值观不甚认同吧。村上一再表示,并不是为了追求自我而去写小说,而是在小说写作过程中偶尔瞥见自我,在小说技艺的打磨过程中构建出了自我——似乎是一种相当科学化的“自我”概念。

所以川上未映子的总结非常精到:“一是关键事项要充分投入时间;二是要逼视‘此其时也’”。不仅对于小说写作,对于任何自己关注的对象都适用吧。持续投入时间、身心专注、深度介入,与选定的对象全面关联,主动等待,时机来了,就像密涅瓦的猫头鹰一般机敏地振翅起飞。

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    嘿,539彩券可不是昨天才有的新鮮事,它在台灣已經陪伴了我們好多年了。簡單的玩法,小小的投注,卻有著不小的期待,難怪它這麼受歡迎。

    ### 539開獎,是場視覺盛宴!

    每次”539開獎”,都像是一場小型的節目。專業的主持人、明亮的燈光,還有那台專業的抽獎機器,每次都帶給我們不小的刺激。

    ### 跟我一起玩539?

    想玩539?超簡單!走到街上,找個彩券行,選五個你喜歡的號碼,買下來就對了。當然,現在科技這麼發達,坐在家裡也能買,多方便!

    ### 539開獎,那刺激的感覺!

    每次”539開獎”,真的是讓人既期待又緊張。想像一下,如果這次中了,是不是可以去吃那家一直想去但又覺得太貴的餐廳?

    ### 最後說兩句

    539彩券,真的是個小確幸。但嘿,玩彩券也要有度,別太沉迷哦!希望每次”539開獎”,都能帶給你一點點的驚喜和快樂。

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